Tibetan Buddhism and Psychotherapy: Conversations with the Dalai Lama

Part 4 of 4

D. K: "There's much in the Tibetan tradition about the process of death and the things that lamas can do to help the dying and the dead. This is a relatively new area of concern for Western psychologists. What practical techniques do you think that they could teach the dying to help them to diminish or remove their fear of death?"

Dalai Lama: "I think here, if the person who is dying has a belief in the next life, then there are different ways to overcome fear in these things. Now, suppose the person does not believe in the next life, then...."

His Holiness began to laugh, as did I, for as I said, "Yes, that's the problem."

Dalai Lama: "Then I think that the simplest thing is to think logically. Now with fear, there is nothing helpful in fear or worry or sadness or sorrow. The reality is [that one is] dying: one should not think about these other things. Simply rest, relax. . . ."

D. K: "Relax? What could psychologists do, then, do you think, to help people relax?"

Dalai Lama: "That you see. . .I don't know. I think that is according to the individual person. Suppose someone is very much concerned about their children or some of their relatives, or his wife or her husband, something like that. Then of course, you may say something about these people. For example, if a man is dying and is very much concerned about his wife, then at that moment, they can say, 'Oh, don't worry about your wife, your wife is very fine,' or something like that. 'And your children, they are very bright and there is every reason to believe their future will be successful,' just like that."

D. K: "Just to be reassuring. But do you think that ...."

Dalai Lama: "Another thing. . .maybe one important thing is whether that person believes in the next life or not. So it is better to avoid anger, hatred, and very strong attachment during the moment of death. So you see, this is not only helpful for the longer period [i.e, for future lives], but even at that moment he may get more relaxed."

D. K: "Well, what kind of a practical technique could a psychologist suggest to someone to avoid those extreme feelings that would be so disruptive, like anger, at the moment or at the time of dying?"

Dalai Lama: "Again, much depends on the individual person. According to my own experience, I think the best thing is to analyze, to think, reason."

D. K: "Just reasoning through the situation?"

Dalai Lama: "If you feel very angry, it doesn't help. But now, at this moment there's something very extraordinary, how do you say, this is a very important period, this is a time to investigate about the mind. You tell that to the person, you see. Then he may have some new thoughts to investigate or to check into, or to look at his own mind. Then that may help him to forget feelings of hatred or other things."

D. K: "Aha, taking advantage of the situation to investigate would draw one away from the feelings of hatred, or anger."

Dalai Lama: "It is a very important period to investigate or to try to realize the nature of consciousness."

D. K: "This makes me wonder about something else. Many people who are dying are in severe pain and are given drugs to dull the pain, but these drugs also dull the consciousness or alter it in other ways. How might these drugs affect the process of dying? I mean, must a person have clear consciousness unaffected by drugs to die in the most beneficial way?"

Dalai Lama: "It's better to have a clear mind."

D. K: "It's better to have a clear mind. So in some cases it might be preferable to avoid taking the drugs and have pain?"

Dalai Lama: "Right."

The idea of dying without access to pain killing drugs was very disconcerting, so I pressed the subject. "What if the pain is so strong that it keeps the mind focused on the pain and one can't look at the more beneficial aspect of investigating the mind at the time of death?" He, of course, realized that his answer had made me very uncomfortable and laughed, "Of course, you see, there are exceptions everywhere."

D. K: "O.K. Are the visionary experiences of the dying, if they see beings coming to greet them or bright lights, something like that, are they merely projections out of their own mind or hallucinations? Are they merely experiencing their own mind? Can these experiences be used in some sort of beneficial way by the dying person, or should they be ignored?"

Dalai Lama: "[As to the first part of your question,] there are two types. There are certain visions. One is just merely projection [rnam rtog]. As to the other, we believe that there is some indication [rten 'brel] or some reason or some kind of influence [or intimation] of the next life, the next stage which appears. So there are two categories. Now, the second part of your question, about their being beneficial. Now suppose he sees some positive visions which give him some happiness, some kind of satisfaction. Then, he may get some peace or relaxation."

D. K.: "So, he should embrace those visions that are positive."

Dalai Lama: "Yes. If something is negative, or creates fear or something like that, then it is better to tell him, 'Ah, this is just a vision or your own projection - nothing to worry about.' "

D. K.: "So let the person embrace the positive, but say that the negative are merely projections."

Dalai Lama: "In reality, as I mentioned earlier, there are two things. For the person who has some practice, some Buddhist practices, especially these tantric practices, then that moment is very important, a very crucial period to implement some of these teachings. At that moment, if it is some person who has some knowledge about these practices, then, remind him or her. That is important."

D. K: "For a person who perhaps has religious faith in their own Christian tradition, it might then be useful to keep the mind attending to an image of the Virgin Mary or Christ, or something like that, and that would be very beneficial."

Dalai Lama: "Oh yes."

D. K: "A question which one of our readers asked is how does one decide on the appropriate balance between the inner meditative kind of work, and work in the world for the service of humanity? He's read that in early Buddhist texts it's suggested that one's first responsibility is to attain deep levels of awakening for oneself before going out into the world. So for us how would one strike the appropriate balance between working for one's own enlightenment and serving other people?"

Dalai Lama: "I think it is difficult to say because there may be a variety, or many different cases, with different circumstances. The basic thing is that, when you are involved in worldly life, there are many cases or occasions or many factors which create anger, attachment, and such things. So, before committing oneself in those activities, first you should reach a certain stage where you can control these things."

D. K: "Control the anger."

Dalai Lama: "Yes, so that is the general thing. Another factor is that you should judge the value of an activity, its usefulness. If in order to make some achievement you are completely isolated for some time, [there may be some] value or usefulness in that, and despite your low stage of spiritual development, if you do some work in society, and there may be some more usefulness in that, then do that. So the main thing is, you should judge the usefulness of actions. But as for being isolated, for some preparation, all right for the beginning, [and later] some involvement, so like that. So that depends on the individual case, according to one's disposition."

D. K: "So it differs according to one's disposition. How would one judge when one is perhaps being overly selfish and withdrawing into one's self and avoiding responsibilities? This would be hard, especially if someone's not very well developed; they could think, well, it's very important that I sit here and practice, practice, practice. Meanwhile, they're not really meeting their responsibilities to others."

Dalai Lama: "Now, you see, if we look at my own case, if I just pursue practices for my own improvement or development, I would need some time completely isolated. Say ten or fifteen years. Now I would gain some good results, but that usefulness and the negative effect on the Tibetans as a whole, especially those Tibetan refugees outside of Tibet...."

D. K: "They would lose the benefit of your guidance, although you would gain by withdrawing yourself."

Dalai Lama: "There is that viewpoint, some kind of sacrifice. So it is like that. Say there is a Buddhist teacher, someone involved in the field of teaching, at least a few students gain something practical and beneficial. If he remains isolated someplace for ten, fifteen, twenty years, he may gain something, but those students would lose out. So one has to judge according to one's own circumstances."

D. K: "Right. In the case of psychologists, it might be a beneficial kind of thing to take short retreats in order to get a better sense of themselves and develop themselves, but not to completely drop the work because then they wouldn't be benefitting others.

"In previous statements, Your Holiness had said that the disturbed need to build up the conventional self [something like the 'ego', sometimes called the 'conventional I'], so they can function properly in the world. For the normal person, part of growth would be the refutation of the false self [a self which is believed to be independent and permanent]. As an example of the building-up process, as it's followed in the West, psychologists teach people to assert themselves in situations and perhaps to try to attain the objects of desire in order to strengthen the weak person's ability to function in the world. Now, how would the psychologist know when to stop the first part of this process, this growth process, so as to avoid making the false self even stronger, and the grasping at that false self even more firm?"

Dalai Lama: "On this level where you have one person who is completely discouraged and one person who is over-confident, I think that the main thing is that both cases deal with the 'conventional I'; this has nothing to do with the shunyata theory. And also for the person who is unusual in the spiritual field, there are two extremes. If there is too much ego feeling, pride, then there is every danger of neglecting Dharma practice; 'So I know everything, I have everything.' That sort of thing. So in that case you need, how to say, the clear realization of the weakness of oneself. This includes even your physical weakness, physical defects. For example, in my own case, I do not have good eyesight. Even at just a simple human level, I need these glasses. Now like that, even at just an ordinary human level, my eyesight is much poorer than the normal person. Think, then, of one's own weaker points and the pride will go, like that. Then you see, if one feels much too low, 'Oh, I'm very weak, I can't do anything,' that's a feeling of complete discouragement. Then, for that problem, reason with him, 'Oh, you have a human brain; even a great person such as Mahatma Gandhi, or even Shakyamuni Buddha; now they had no more than just our brain, the same human brain as us, the same human wisdom, human intelligence, human opportunity. So, you see, why not, you can also accomplish things.' "

D. K: "Likewise, do the same."

Dalai Lama: "So with that sort of encouragement they gain balance. Too high, go down, too low, go up. This has nothing to do with shunyata [the analysis of the apparent 'self' nature of persons and phenomena]."

D. K: "So this building up of the ego would not increase the grasping after the 'self-nature'?"

Dalai Lama: "When you're feeling very weak, and you can't do anything, in that case, in fact, you have grasping for self. If you think, 'There's nobody weaker than myself,' then at that point, you're thinking very strongly about 'myself'."

D. K: "Now, I see that, O.K. Now if the psychologist were to say, 'Look,' as you say, 'Gandhi had a brain, you have a brain, you have the capacity to do very wonderful things,' then that's not increasing the self-cherishing [grasping after one's 'self' nature] because that person has strong self-cherishing anyhow. Is that what you're suggesting?"

Dalai Lama: "Grasping for the self, this is the basic problem."

D. K: "So this kind of technique is not going to increase grasping after self because there's so much of it already that it doesn't matter?"

Dalai Lama: "I don't know. Now that largely depends on the interpretation or the understanding of the anatma theory.(5) Now the remarkable thing is that the proper understanding of non-self theory, that knowledge will help all the positive thoughts and will obstruct all the negative thoughts. If a person is too weak, or discouraged, then that understanding may help. Now again, if the person is too high, then this thought [of emptiness] will help control [that inflation]. I think, you see, in another way, the proper understanding of shunyata makes you realistic. Because of your grasping at things in a way and considering things in a way in which they don't actually exist, that kind of thought or consideration is the real trigger of all these emotions. Having an improper evaluation of things [is the real trigger of all these emotions]. The realization of the knowledge, the proper knowledge of shunyata will control all those thoughts. Once those thoughts are controlled, it is something like stopping the trigger."

D. K: "So, understanding shunyata is the best psychotherapy of all, if one can gain that understanding."

He laughed as he had done a year ago when I had suggested that the shunyata theory might have a place in psychotherapeutic practice, saying, "Something like that, I think."

We concluded the interview with some small talk and a lot of laughter, and then Tendzin Choegyal and Alex and I left the audience hall to continue the conversation over coffee in one of the offices next to His Holiness's palace. After coffee, I walked across the courtyard to the temple and looked out over the plain of North India and the rice paddies 5,000 feet below. Above me, the hawks continued to circle and cry out, while below me the young monks began to practice on the long horns.

NOTES

(1) Here His Holiness refers to the use of the imagination to generate or visualize an image in the 'mind's eye.' This type of exercise is a portion of the 'generation stage' often referred to as 'deity yoga.' For an authoritative discussion of deity yoga, see Tsong-ka-pa (1977, 1981), each with an extensive introduction by the Dalai Lama.

(2) Shunya (empty) and shunyata (emptiness) are Sanskrit terms which designate the actual nature of persons and phenomena as these are known to the consciousness of the master yogi. While ordinary consciousness perceives phenomena as permanent, partless and independent substances with distinct identities, the wisdom consciousness of the master yogi perceives them as empty or devoid of permanence, as made of parts, as dependent on causes and conditions, and as without an identity based on their own natures (Cf. Tsong-ka-pa, 1980, pp. 50-74). Bodhichitta is a Sanskrit term which is variously translated as "altruistic mind of enlightenment" or "awakening mind." It designates the attitude cultivated by the yogi that all actions of body, speech and mind are undertaken not merely for the benefit of the yogi himself, but for the benefit of all sentient beings. Such motivation and actions are said to be as firm as a diamond because they do not have the fault of selfishness. This is the meaning of His Holiness's use of the word "determination" (cf. Tsong-ka-pa, 1980. pp. 36-39, 46-49).

(3) These techniques are based on the view that one can only develop excessive attachment towards persons and things if one misunderstands their nature. Thus, the antidote to excessive attachments (such as lust or greed) is knowledge of the true nature of persons and things, which is that they are devoid or empty [shunya] of permanence, partlessness, independence and identity (Cf. note 2). Analyzing the human body into its constituent organs, for example, forcefully reminds one that it is composed of parts - who could feel lust for an aggregation of organs? Rather, the attachment is a response of instinct [bag chags] toward an object whose actual nature is incorrectly understood and which is only considered on a superficial level.

(4) Here His Holiness refers to the Buddhist assertion that the objects of perception have their own nature but that we don't know them as such. Ordinary persons only know objects as perceptions to which they have attached labels or identities, which means that their appearance is derived in part from the objects' own nature ('their side') and in part from 'our side', which is the perceptual process, the mental process of labeling, and the influence of desire, habit, instinct, and the ignorance which is the attribution of selfhood to all phenomena.

(5) Anatma means "non-self." When the wisdom consciousness knows persons and phenomena to be shunya or empty of permanence, independence or partlessness, it knows them to be lacking an identifiable self-nature. Atma refers to this self-nature, and wisdom knows persons and phenomena to be anatma, "without self," or "selfless."

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From interviews conducted on June 16 and 30, 1983. Published in the Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 1984. Copyright 1984, Transpersonal Institute